Dealing with Suicide and Violence in the Workplace

[00:00:00] Mo Fathelbab: Welcome to today's episode of People and Strategy. I'm your host, Mo Fathelbab, president of International Facilitators Organization, People and Strategy is a podcast from the SHRM Executive Network, the premier network of executives in the field of human resources. Each week we bring you in-depth conversations with the country's top HR executives and thought leaders.

For today's conversation, I'm excited to be joined by Liz Cotner, director of Human Resources, Foster Swift Collins and Smith PC. Welcome, Liz. We're also welcoming back Marjorie Morrison SHRM's Mental Health Executive and residence. Welcome, Marjorie Warning. Please be advised this episode features potentially traumatic events including workplace violence and suicide.

To kick us off, Liz, I'd like to start with, if you could tell us the story of your career journey. 

[00:00:59] Liz Cotner: Sure. Absolutely. Hello audience. Hi Mo. Hey Marjorie. Really excited to be here today talking about mental health. I began my journey 18 years ago at Henry Ford Health System in Detroit, and then I moved to General Motors.

I've worked for CAE as well out of Montreal. And I've worked also for a couple of other mid-size companies and most currently, the head of HR at Foster Swift Law Firm out of Lansing, Michigan. 

[00:01:28] Mo Fathelbab: Well, that is a great, career. Let's dig into it a little bit more. So, one of your passions, Liz, is mental health. Why is this such an important topic to you? 

[00:01:38] Liz Cotner: Mental health has been a part of my whole journey in life, personally and professionally. So, my personal journey is actually in regards to my mom. So six years ago, unfortunately, my mom committed suicide and for her entire existence for 60 years, so she was 60.

When she passed away, she struggled with four different mental health conditions. She struggled with manic bipolar, depression, anxiety, depression in general, and at the end she was diagnosed with schizophrenia. And so growing up in a household where my mom often was having emotional outbursts, she screamed and yelled all the time, was really traumatic at a young age, I, by the time I was five, I realized, you know, my mom wasn't, and.

A normal mom, you know, she, came with challenges that I, wasn't born to deal with, right? And so unfortunately my mom, did also experience two divorces, and that didn't help that, you know, compressed the depression and anxiety. there was a time when I was a senior in high school, that she tried to commit suicide in her home.

And I had to call 9 1 1 and I remember just shaking, you know, I've never had to call 9 1 1 before, let alone for my mom who was trying to kill herself. She had locked herself in, the master bedroom in her home in Troy, Michigan. And I remember getting off the phone and just shaking, you know, just continuously calling my grandparents lived around the corner and saying, granny, you know, my mom's.

Trying to commit suicide, not even really understanding. Right. At 18, I had no idea. I didn't have any professional training. I didn't, come with a background in that had not been in the workforce just yet, hadn't even gone to college yet. And, that was just a big moment for me, a pivotal moment in my personal life.

Wow. And You know, unfortunately down the line, she, you know, proceeding forward with suicide and, you know, had completed that. And, you know, again, now I was much older in life. I was in my mid thirties and. Still, you know when you get that phone call that you know your mom's dead. she killed herself.

I remember my whole body and my ears just went silent. Like, I couldn't hear, I was in the middle of target buying backpacks for the Sarasota Police Department to administer to the local, children. It was like back, you know, almost back to school. And, that moment also life changing. Right. 

[00:04:31] Mo Fathelbab: Of course.

Liz, first I want to thank you for your courage to share, something so personal with our audience, and it's obviously very touching. How did you cope with all that growing up? 

[00:04:44] Liz Cotner: It was a, it was, a lot to deal with. Again, no instruction manual. Nobody says, Hey, here's a book on how to handle, a parent who had multiple mental health conditions.

The first coping mechanism, and I still use it today, is actually listening to music. I took that a step further and was a college radio DJ in undergraduate studies and, that really helped me too. As my mom progressed in her own adulthood, her conditions became significantly severe. You know, her mental health conditions were her, they, the brain and, Marjorie's gonna of course touch on it from a clinical standpoint.

It's the brain just, you know, was challenged, if you will. And, so, music. Really coped with music. spent a lot of time playing sports. Really enjoyed playing sports, running, tennis, volleyball, cheerleading, all the things growing up, right. close support systems. So I was really lucky that I had grandparents that were around the corner.

My dad served as a confidant. I'm an only child, so I, when I turned 16, I stayed out of the house. As much as I humanly could. I wasn't home very often and I made sure that the, college I chose was over three hours away so that she couldn't have access to me and that I could have some space to grow up and, enjoy that college journey.

So those are the top three things that I used, to really get me through some of those tougher times. 

[00:06:20] Mo Fathelbab: Thank you, Liz. Marjorie, from a clinical perspective, what are some coping strategies that, you can suggest to our audience? 

[00:06:28] Marjorie Morrison: First of all, Liz, I, echo Mo and thank you so much for your, just your willingness to share your story and to be so vulnerable.

And those are. Those are really hard things. I appreciate how you said you knew at an early age, like at five, that this didn't feel normal and probably 'cause you would see other kids and know that what you are experiencing at home was different. So that's always a really good sign when you're able to see something and separate yourself from it.

So just knowing that you had that early age experience shows why you've been, you know, resilient through these things. You know, I. I always say when it comes to coping, it's exactly what you just said. It's whatever feels right for you. So if it's music, I also love music. That's very calming for me.

Activities, things like that. I think what's a good, another way maybe to think about it too, is what we can do, especially in HR or as people leaders, what could we do when people come to us having just. Been through something traumatic or sharing something traumatic, I can kind of share some of those thoughts if that's okay.

I, think that. One thing that I have found is that we, wanna create an environment where people feel, comfortable. And so sometimes it's just using as, sort of cliche as, this is a very like, respectful tone. You know, just being able to, not be condescending, but at the same time, you know, being, just being able to share, You know, some gratitude. I often say when someone shares something personal with you. It is the greatest gift or compliment they can give you. That means you're, creating an environment where they feel safe. So normalizing it to really important to have clear boundaries. we are in the roles that you guys are working in, you know, Liz and, all of our audience.

There's always a gray line. It's always a little bit fuzzy, and it's not black and white. So it's, really important to say things like, you know, I wanna support you the best I can, but I'm not a therapist. You know, my role is to help, connect you to appropriate resources. Those boundaries are really important and, I talk a lot about empathy, but empathy is so critical.

So being able to say things like. I hear this has been really challenging for you or, you know, again, the gratitude. Thank you for being open with me. you know, and, maybe bringing it a little bit back to like work, you know, is it, is this something, can you tell me more about it and how it might be, you know, impacting you at work to kind of keep that conversation back.

'cause I, I think the key in this is showing empathy but not being a therapist. And so being able to kind of have that somewhat of a boundary. 

[00:09:22] Mo Fathelbab: Thank you Merick. So a question that is coming up for me naturally around this is what happens if you are an H HR or a CHRO and somebody comes to you and, expresses suicidal ideation?

[00:09:38] Liz Cotner: I. Yeah, absolutely. So I have had that in my career before where I did have an employee, you know, unexpectedly arrive in my office and had said that he had, attempted suicide at home. And I'm thankful for a couple things. I'm thankful that he came forward. That's not easy. You know, we talk about vulnerability and empathy and some gratitude in there too.

As Marjorie touched on, I'm thankful that he could trust me enough and that his colleagues had actually encouraged him to come to HR. And so I'm so glad that he did. He's, with us today, so, come good. You know, that's good. And when he sat down, I'll never forget how there was such shame. On his face and fear, you could just see the fear and shame.

And so one thing, as an HR practitioner, we always wanna look at body language. We talk a lot about that in the interview process. But then there's that transition to the real world practice. Now the employees in the seed, now I need to be attuned to that skill, right? And so when he sat down, I immediately could tell, okay, we have a situation here.

My first thought was, do I need to call 9 1 1? what's the level of emergency? So also as an HR practitioner, we're assessing risk clinically too. Okay, what's the risk? Do I need to have some, additional practitioners on, back line? Right? And so, and so some of the questions that I had asked is, can you help me understand how you're feeling right now?

I love asking, can you help me understand how you're feeling right now in this moment? Because in two minutes down the line, his life could have been gone. So let me capture the real emotion right now. And so he was able to tell me, you know, right now I don't feel so good about myself and I'm feeling suicidal.

Okay, next step. Now I'm going down kinda the five why's, which you know, is a Toyota model on there too. And, okay, so you know, why might you be feeling this right now? And then he was able to, again, take me down the. Pathway and what we ended up doing is excusing him for the rest of the day. So we, offered him a couple resources.

We extended FMLA, we extended short-term disability, a, DA, you know, all of those great immediate resources. I knew he had been with the f not the firm, excuse me, had been with the company. For over a year. So I knew his tenure so I could extend those resources. I also really demonstrated curiosity, and this is something I really want our audience to know, is that there's such a stigma, right around mental health.

There are a lot of, there's a band of emotions, right? There's. Anger and shame and hurt and fear and sadness and depression and feeling worthless and loneliness is really physical. And so it's really also assessing those emotions and being able to put the resources in front of an employee and saying, you know, have you tapped into resources?

Are you open to resources right now? 'cause we don't ever wanna push. Somebody that might be feeling suicidal or just really not feeling good in here. I don't ever wanna push. 

[00:12:53] Mo Fathelbab: Thank you. Thank you, Liz. And we're gonna get to your curiosity model shortly. I want to hear from Marjorie, just, from the clinical perspective again, and what happens when you think somebody has suicidal ideation and what do you recommend?

[00:13:08] Marjorie Morrison: Yeah, I mean, one of the first things is there's. There's this fallacy, which is that if you ask someone, are you thinking about taking your life, that you're gonna put that idea in their head? And research has actually shown that is not the truth that people want you to ask, because if it is. In their head, and it is something that they're thinking they're gonna, they're much more open to share.

There are some, I mean, it's a critical moment and Liz, I think it again, goes to the way people feel comfortable around you and their willingness to. To talk and open up. One of the first things you wanna do is you wanna ask questions like, have you thought, you know, you can ask this, que have you thought about how you would do it?

These are things that make it more imminent. So the, questions you wanna know is, do they have a plan? And then do they have the means to execute on that plan? Right? So if it's like, I would shoot myself and then do they have access to a gun? Right? Those are now makes that risk even higher. So it's really important that you're assessing it and then you do need to bring in immediate help.

You know, we have. We have different types of things where we say, but somebody who shares that they're feeling actively suicidal is somebody who does need immediate help. And if they're resistant, you can do in, in, I think every state, a 72 hour hold. And that's, you know, and you might feel that's overkill.

But if you start to talk to the person and you're, they're sharing with you that they do have a plan, they do have the means, you are gonna need to kind of put your, you know, protect them and, you know, find. Whether or not they have a family support system, is there someone there or do you need to do a short term stay just to diffuse the situation?

Most, a lot of the time, I won't say most, but a lot of the time people are really receptive and grateful for that intervention. It's not typically seen as something that is like, no, this is overkill. Usually people are, really struggling when they're going to that point that they're sharing it. It's not uncommon.

I have had a lot of HR people share with me over the years that an employee comes to them and says, I attempted suicide over the weekend, or I've been thinking about it, or things like that. 

[00:15:24] Liz Cotner: So I think for our audience, that's a really great question. Do you have an action plan? Because what I found, with my experience personally is that, the individual may not truly wanna die.

They just want their pain to end. You know, we do have, employees in the workforce, whether we know it or not, that might be going home to domestic violence and abusive cases. They're bringing that to work, but you would never know. I. How would we know? And so this is the time more than ever to ask those curiosity questions, which we'll get to momentarily.

And that Marjorie, touched on as well, is asking direct questions, curiosity questions. Do you have a plan? Most times they do because they've been thinking about it. 'cause they just want the pain to end and they really want our audience to know that. and how that feels. That can't feel good living with that pain day in and, day out.

[00:16:24] Marjorie Morrison: I, I often say that suicidal ideation is like being in a very dark cave. You feel. You feel really trapped and there's like no way out. And every sort of option or opportunity is a ray of light. So if you think about it as like a hole in that cave gives some light to, oh, I can get out of this. And so the more sort of.

Options you can also take with someone if you are feeling, you know, comfortable with them and you've mitigated the situation to start thinking about, you know, what other options are there to get out of this really dark place. All of those, I mean, that's for all of us with everything, right, when we're feeling totally overwhelmed.

The best remedy for that is thinking about these different kinds of options that can really make us feel like we have some power back, that we have some control back, and that, you know, we can, sort of set a new course, but you are right. it's a, devastating, place to be.

[00:17:24] Mo Fathelbab: So the curiosity model, I'm curious. 

[00:17:27] Liz Cotner: Yeah, I know. Let's keep curious. So how did I arrive at a curious, framework? So I wanna share with our audience in flipping the page to the professional side. My first exposure to psychiatric services, was at, I was an HR intern 18 years ago, and Henry Ford Health.

Had contracted with Select Specialty Hospital. We had a, psychiatric emergency department where I worked closely with our employees, and how they, you know, went through the intake process. I mean, frontline workers that we, just don't think about and I want our audience to remember their.

Frontline workers. Right? So my curiosity began because of my experience at home and then I had exposure in the workforce, right? Instead of thinking, wow, I'm not gonna do anything about this, I became curious. And then as I, you know, transitioned into leadership roles, I had an experience with a workplace shooting, in 2017 at Zota Beach Resort.

In Long Boat Key Florida, where a gunman came in and, shot and killed two of my employees, the night auditor and the other security guard, and getting that phone call at six thirty-eight in the morning changed my whole life. And my general manager at the time had said, Liz or Ted Bodies in the lobby, I need you to get in here.

I mean, it took me three years. To not hear that phone call in my ear, right? I mean, I had some PTSD from that I went into, grief counseling myself. I wanna share with our audience. There's no shame in that. There is no shame as a HR practitioner or a leader, or. CEO, anybody in the leadership seat that needs that help, please seek it.

And I was very thankful. I had a local counselor that helped me walk through and un, unwind that 14 hour day. And so these lived experiences have really, you know, fostered a, mindset of curiosity. 

[00:19:29] Mo Fathelbab: Thank you, Liz. Marjorie. Any thoughts on the PTSD part of this? Because I think that's an important and potentially overlooked, aspect of, mental health and coping.

[00:19:41] Marjorie Morrison: Yeah, Liz. Wow. You've really have seen a lot and I think most people are fortunate, hopefully to live their life and not have that, but it can, really changed the course of someone's life. I've spent many years working with the military and, You know, PTSD as you mentioned, it's very, real and, it can be triggering at, you know, a lot of, you know, different, times.

I think what's really so important, I, and we all know this in, HR and as I'm like really getting to know so many great, all of these amazing people that you all are doing this work that's so hard is that people come in to work with. Their own sort of traumatic backgrounds. And in some cases it's, and just so you know, PTSD is what happens when after six weeks you still have symptoms.

That's when it turns into what we actually call the diagnosis of post-traumatic stress. But prior to that. We can have a, like acute stress, a reaction to a very stressful event. That's a very positive thing. You don't really wanna be in a situation as you can imagine, where something very traumatic like that happens and you're, not affected by it.

Like we, we are supposed to be as human beings as we react to things. So I think it becomes an issue when that time goes on longer than, that, you know, goes on longer. Recovery takes longer, and it starts to really impact you in different ways. And so I would say like for. For, all of, you in these roles, it's really important to like be thinking about different signs that you would see people that may be experiencing some kind of trauma.

And it's a little bit challenging 'cause it isn't just one thing because you have physical signs. So you'll see sometimes it could be fatigue or exhaustion, headaches. Stomach issues, changes in sleep, difficulty sleeping, or oversleeping. You'll see sometimes like, visible things like weight loss or weight gain.

Then you have emotional signs, so things like persistent sadness, irritability, feelings of hopelessness, being overwhelmed. Kind of a sense of like, not a lot of satisfaction in work or like accomplishments, things like that. Emotional numbness. You'll hear people say, I just, I don't feel like I feel anymore.

But then there's also behavioral and cognitive signs. So I was thinking it's like behavioral, cognitive, emotional, physical behavioral signs are things like seeing people withdraw from social interactions, having a hard time concentrating. Obviously you talked touched earlier on substance use, like, you know, this increased, like relying on substance use.

and you know, at work we'll see it with decline in productivity, right? Missing deadlines and things like that. And with cognitive it's also important, like think about focusing memory problems. negative talk, like persistent worry. We'll, we will see that in people manager roles, right? Because you start to see people, just sort of not.

Track on things and you're like, wait, we just talked about that. And you know, you don't remember that was supposed to be delivered. All of those are really important signs that you could look at to, to realize that someone might be struggling or having some kind of, you know, PTSD symptoms. 

[00:23:11] Mo Fathelbab: Yeah. Thank you. So for CHS who wanna prepare for unexpected workplace trauma, what do you advise for them? 

[00:23:20] Liz Cotner: So coming back, Mo, you had asked me about that curious framework, and this is where I wanna deliver the framework to our audience. So I think of, ensuring that as a CHRO, CEO thought leaders in the seat, or people, managers in general using the acronym.

Curious, and let's break that down to gather. So, c stands for, can you help me understand what it's like to live with your current condition? U stands for understand that you know, the receiving individual who's going through a mental health, either crisis or has a condition, may not want you to take immediate action.

And this is outside of maybe suicide. So we're thinking of somebody who, maybe they, just lost a baby. Maybe their parent just passed away. Some grief, some deep sadness. Understand that your role may not be immediate action. R is for recall a time when maybe you didn't feel so good or you were experiencing some trauma in your life, and, how would you wanna be received and what type of support was helpful for you?

I is stands for, is there, you know, is there another time in your life where maybe you've experienced this before, helping the individual that's, you know, right in front of you. Call back. You know what, I have gone through this before. Maybe a coping mechanism, like a support system, music, some type of activity, you know, might help me in this moment where I'm not feeling so good.

O stands for open-ended questions. Let's remember audience, we wanna ask those open-ended questions really important. U stands for understanding not to ask too many questions, right? So bombarding somebody that's in front of you outside again of suicide, may not be able to answer more than. Two or three questions.

And lastly, in curious, the S stay silent. So when the other individual is, you know, releasing their thoughts, it's easier said than done. Staying silent is very hard because our human intuition, we wanna help, we wanna give to somebody that needs our help. 

[00:25:33] Mo Fathelbab: Yeah. Thank you. Marjorie. 

[00:25:35] Marjorie Morrison: Well, first of all, I, love that and I, love how people can create order to chaos, right?

Was, that's like a perfect example of what you did. You've been through these traumatic events and then you created your own framework for it, which is great. And I often talk a lot about listening and the key to really being there for someone is listening, which I think you put in the context of silent.

But I love that because I think that's such a beautiful way to go. I. I think we, it's important to think about a traumatic type of event can be a suicide, like we talked about, can be a workplace violence. But it can be other things too. Even like a lot of reorg, sudden layoffs, things like that, that create, can really create dramatic events.

And so it's, and so I've been very passionate about this really being proactive. It's important to have a plan, to be prepared. Have a plan. What is that plan gonna be? Establish really clear policies with that, be able to communicate with it and then be able to give people roles of what happens, take care of the, you know, whatever basic needs are.

Are there, I mean this is a time when employers like, kind of really need to show up. and then, you know, really conducting that debrief is so important. I am. Spent many of my early years of training in San Diego and as a school psychologist, I did unfortunately have to work with school shootings.

It's, it within two to three days, you really need to get in there and conduct a debrief. provide ongoing, you know, psychological support, really have that leadership be visible and you wanna see how people are doing, really kind of monitor how they're doing and then put in flexible workplaces or, work situations if, that would be helpful.

[00:27:23] Mo Fathelbab: Thank you Marjorie. Liz, I wanna close with our last question, our typical closing question. What is one piece of advice that has shaped your work or personal life? 

[00:27:34] Liz Cotner: The one piece of advice that has just stuck with me and probably will for the next, two decades and a half of my career is words have meaning.

Words really have meaning. So what we say really means something to the person receiving it or the audience or the, greater good if we're doing a speaking engagement. And so I hope our audience, you know, has had a, good experience listening to Marjorie and I, but words have meaning 

[00:28:02] Mo Fathelbab: Thank you.

Thank you both for sharing your wisdom. And Liz, thank you again for sharing your such, intimate story and vulnerable story with us. And that's where we'll end it for this episode of People and Strategy. You can follow the People and Strategy podcast wherever you get your podcasts. Also, podcast reviews have a real impact on podcast visibility.

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